I agree with that and the only qualification, I'd say, is that I think in most religions there is something that is probably true in some ways. It would be hard to imagine a totally false religion that got everything wrong, that would actually have any adherents. But they will not be generally saved in any religious structure that presents the gods or god in a way that is deeply different from the God of the Bible. I don't see how that could happen. So, if in the case of some religions, there is a kind, good, strong, provident, and merciful God such as we see, for instance, in Vishnu of Hinduism or Allah in some forms of Islam, then I could imagine our true God speaking through those pictures to somebody who is otherwise not going to hear the gospel of Jesus Christ, drawing them toward Himself through that confused but somewhat accurate theology. But you hear all the qulifications I'm putting on. The fundamental bottom line here is: are they apprehending the true God by God's gracious intervention in their lives, and are they responding with the gift of faith that God alone gives? I can imagine that happening in the case of people with fuzzy theology; but we need to get the gospel to them as soon as possible so they're not groping around in the dark, and so they can get to know the Jesus Christ we know and love." -From An Interview with John Stackhouse, Jr., from Modern Reformation Mag. May/June 2009
25 comments:
That's how I feel about certain "Christian" denominations, but I have never considered such a strong statement applicable to other religions. Unless of course, we are talking about a person who by faith has received God's grace, and is indwelt by the Holy Spirit, but has not yet formally left, been dismissed from or renounced his former associations. A Buddhist or Muslim on paper, but not at heart; you know what I'm saying?
Hey Craver, nice to have you stop by.
And how about Jehovah Witnesses, Mormons, and other religious cults that have Jesus in the faith statements?
I thought of Cornelius when I read Dr. Stackhouse's thoughts.
Cornelius was a good man in the Jews religion, and yet was not saved yet. But God, who loved him, sent Peter to him, so that he could believe the gospel and be saved from his sin.
I think there are gray areas here, and so I posted this to get input just like yours Craver.
Thanks so much. I appreciate what you said, and I feel basically the same as you.
In John 14 Jesus says "I am the way the truth and the life." A lot of people use that bible verse to eliminate the possibility of other religions having access to God.
In Romans we are told that God reveals Himself in nature and in our conscience (ch 1). So people that see God's creation and live by the laws of their conscience can ultimately be saved even if they don't have a formal belief.
But once we get into different religions things get a bit more tricky I would say. Don't individuals that choose other religions, reject something on the inside of them, prompting them toward the true God?
Just some thoughts I am throwing out there. First time visiting your site by the way. Really liked your post.
Interesting choice of words here 'apprehanding",, humm
Your posts always get me to thinking Have a great day in the LORD
Glad Craver came over too so he would stop complaining about Not mowing his grass! Only kidding Craver
mommanator, I always am encouraged by your visits. Thanks.
Daniel, nice to have you drop in.
The Gospel is the only power to save a dead sinners soul. Rom. 1:16: "For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek."
God loves His lost children, and He is seeking them out, and saving them from their sin, and from His wrath.
The only way to the Father is trough having your sins forgiven. How does God forgive sins?
Only through Christ's atoning death. So, a genuine child of God will be brought to this truth, and the child of the Lord will embrace it, and rejoice in the forgiveness of all his sins. And also, Christ not only takes our sin away, and blots out all our sins, and washes us clean in His death, but He also imputes His righteousness to us.
A child of God is clean, forgiven, and made righteous in Christ. How do we respond to such a God? We trust Him, and live by believing in Jesus, and loving Him.
Don, is this guy a writer of Reformation mag? Shocking!
After living 12 years among Hindus, I can't believe what I'm hearing: That people could come to God through Vishnu of Hinduism? The only way that would be true is if the 'god' they are coming to is Satan.
This kind of talk does no more than make our emotions feel better, but there is no truth in it. Just like the Jews who rejected Christ could not come to God through the Father, so also Hindus and (and Muslims for that matter) are just as damned until they reject their false gods and turn to Christ. This is the truth, painful as it might be for our emotions to accept.
That's true Triston. I think what he's saying is that God will bring His children to Himself, and He does it in different ways.
Like Cornelius was a converted Gentile, and was under the Jewish law, and yet God loved him, and sent Peter to him.
I believe God saves people this way. I may see it a bit different than Stackhouse, but I beleive he is sold out for the gospel.
I thought his words were interesting Triston. And I suppose Miachael Horton and Modern Ref Mag did as well.
The whole interview says a lot more of what Dr. Stackhouse thinks.
Perhaps you can check it out on line, I don't know. I can mail you my copy bro, if you want.
Thanks for stopping by Triston.
That's okay Don. I love Modern Reformation. I wish I could get it here, but I honestly don't think I'd want to read that issue. I've heard too many Christians in India talking similarly. They don't want to believe that the last 2000 years of their Hindu ancestors are in Hell, so, rather, they believe that those people were saved in Hinduism--saved through Christ, but yet, they never knew about Christ, and they never acknoldged him as Lord. What those Indian Christians believe is hogwash. And Cornelius himself was saved by putting his faith in Christ. Peter needed to come to him, tell him the Gospel. That's how Cornelius was saved. But for people to keep following their Hindu god and be saved is impossible. There is no truth in that.
"..were saved in Hinduism"
Triston, did you read the quote?
Seems like you're reading your own meaning into what this teacher said.
YES!! Don, I read the quote. And I just read it again. What are you following with it?
Here are two parts of the quote "they will not be GENERALLY saved in any religious structure that presents the gods or god in a way that is deeply different from the God of the Bible."
So, in other words, he still leaves the possiblity that some could be saved within that religious structure.
Aother quote:
"if in the case of some religions, there is a kind, good, strong, provident, and merciful God such as we see, for instance, in Vishnu of Hinduism ... then I could imagine our true God speaking through those pictures"
What?! Is he nuts! And do YOU actually believe this garbage? Those who worship Vishnu worship demons. Period. Vishn is not a kind, merciful God and such. This is total garbage. I can't believe I am even having this argument with you.
Did you read carefully the quote yorself?
Don, I would add that I can't count on both my hands how many former Muslims say that "The more devoted one becomes to Allah, the more evil they become and the more hate they have for Christians and Jews." I too have found this to be the case in my encounter with "faithful" Muslims. It is the nominal Muslims who are good people. Those who learn from the supposed "kind, good, strong, provident, and merciful God...of Islam" become just like the demon god they worship.
I always enjoy your posts, and you know I love you Don. But I could not disagree with this one more. But you wanted feedback, so I've said what I think.
Thanks.
Triston
Hey Triston, you can surely think this man's words are garbage. I don't. I may disagree with him, and so I put this up to discuss. That's what Modern Reformation Magazine does.
I thought this statement shows where the bottom line with this man is:
"But you hear all the qualifications I'm putting on. The fundamental bottom line here is: are they apprehending the true God by God's gracious intervention in their lives, and are they responding with the gift of faith that God alone gives?"
So we disagree Triston. That's alright. That's why I post thoughts that are different than mine sometimes. So that we can be challenged, and grow in the grace and knowledge of the Lord, and in His love as well.
And I disagree with Dr. Stackhouse as well. But I don't think what he says is garbage.
Dr. John Stackhouse is a prof at Regent College in Vancouver, where JI Packer is, I think. He also has a blog: http://stackblog.wordpress.com/
Don,
Interesting. Yes, C.S. Lewis grapples with this some himself.
You know some of us have discussed this a little on Susan's blog, along with Susan herself.
I think at the heart of all religions other than the true faith, there are demons- Paul says this. But like Stackhouse says, there is also truth in those religions. Of course the error mixed in can prove fatal.
But I have heard there are probably Mormons who are true believers, since something of the gospel can be found within their teachings, which together however, are clearly heretical.
For myself I just don't know, and I don't know enough to comment much on this.
I do have thoughts on it, like those Gentiles Paul mentions in Romans who have God's law written in their hearts in a certain way- not in the new covenant, Spirit-giving way. But because they're made in God's image. Then he mentions their thoughts accusing or defending them, so that it might be said some follow God's light given to them, while others do not.
Of course I reject five point Calvinism as incompatible with Scripture, but I certainly agree with this quote you share:
"are they apprehending the true God by God's gracious intervention in their lives, and are they responding with the gift of faith that God alone gives?"
I likewise respect Stackhouse very much.
I dare say we just don't know all of God's working in salvation in the world, but we'd better rely on what God has revealed and live in faith in reference to that.
Interesting post.
Nice to see you Ted.
Stackhouse also says this: "..here's the test: When they hear about Jesus Christ, do they recognize this as the true Gospel about the true God? Mostly they do. If they don't, then they are turning aside from the only true God and their souls really are in peril."
I am a more cut and dry kind of doctrinal person. Stackhouse seems to have more gray areas, then me. Though I have gray areas as well. We all do.
But the pure and simple truth of Christ alone, through faith alone is essential, and a genuine Christian will not compromise, nor apologize for, the true gospel, and will even give his life for Christ and the gospel.
Thanks, Don. I agree.
I came here to redo my comment and get rid of my point about five-point Calvinism, because it was unnecessary. I'm tired of the divisions among us Christians and that part of my comment can only contribute to that.
While we do have differences, our unity in Christ and the faith is profound, and we have the same Spirit at work, through the same word.
And like you say, the answer is in Christ, and we indeed must go on what we do know from God, from his word.
Thanks.
"I came here to redo my comment and get rid of my point about five-point Calvinism, because it was unnecessary."
No worries mate.
That's alright. I'm a flaming Calvinist, as Dave Shive tells me. The Lord is pleased when we meet at the Cross.
Although there's a time to have heated discussions. But there's a time to leave it alone.
"In Christ alone my hope is found;
He is my light, my strength, my song;
This cornerstone, this solid ground,
Firm through the fiercest drought and storm.
What heights of love, what depths of peace,
When fears are stilled, when strivings cease!
My comforter, my all in all—
Here in the love of Christ I stand."
"But you hear all the qualifications I'm putting on. The fundamental bottom line here is: are they apprehending the true God by God's gracious intervention in their lives, and are they responding with the gift of faith that God alone gives?"
Where is Christ in all this? Has this follower of Allah or follower of Vishnu come to appreciate the work of Christ and what Christ has done for us???
Does this writer say anything about Christ in his whole article??
This is the same nonsense that some Indian Christians push: God is speaking to people in Hinduism, even though they don't believe in Jesus, nor confess Jesus as Lord, nor ever accept Him as their Savior before they die. And THAT is why it is garbage, no truth in it.
It says they are reponding in faith. But faith in WHAT a strong merciful God? So what?! If they haven't responded to the work of Christ they are lost. And there is not even the hint in this article you have provided that they are responding in faith to the work of Christ. Is there? Where is the death and resurrection of Christ in all this? I don't see it anywhere in this post.
Sorry Don,
I had not yet read your comments to Ted before I put up my last two comments.
"Stackhouse also says this: "..here's the test: When they hear about Jesus Christ, do they recognize this as the true Gospel about the true God?"
These words make all the difference for me and make me appreciate Stackhouse more, but I would also like to hear whether he believes they can be saved without the knowledge of Christ. I deny that they can be.
And doesn't the Bible agree with me that no one can be saved unless they hear and respond to the Gospel of Christ?
Cornelius' own salvation is evidence of this, otherwise Peter would have had no need to go to Him and share the Good News with him. Moreover Romans 10:14 also makes this truth clear:
"How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher?"
I find this type of talk extremely dangerous and damaging to the cause of Christ. If Stackhouse is right, missions is unnecessary. God is drawing people to Himself right in the midst of Hinduism and Islam. Christians are lazy enough about sharing their faith without this added excuse that people can come to faith right within their own false religion, without hearing about Jesus.
Dangerous and detrimental to the cause of Christ.
"Does this writer say anything about Christ in his whole article??"
Yes.
"And doesn't the Bible agree with me that no one can be saved unless they hear and respond to the Gospel of Christ?"
Absolutely.
And that is what I will address in my next post.
Have a blessed day Triston.
That sounds great Don. I look forward to reading it. Blessings.
Hey Don,
I just noticed that you have "Saving Private Ryan" listed twice in your favorite movies of your profile. No big deal; just thought I'd bring it to your attention.
That's because I really, really like it. Not really.
Thanks Triston. I have to redo that.
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