"So I’ll cherish the old rugged cross,
Till my trophies at last I lay down;
I will cling to the old rugged cross,
And exchange it some day for a crown."-George Bennard
I like the Trinitarian component to these lyrics. You and I know that Keith is praising God more purely, rightly, and more heartfelt than he ever could while he walked among us.
Amen on both thoughts Craver my friend.
I must say that Keith Green was an excellent singer.But to think that God had a son is absurd and immature, but rather God is the Son.Don, you should believe the Scripture which says that the Lord Jesus is the Father.(Isa. 9:6) 'And the Lord Jesus shall be called EVERLASTING FATHER'!Or do you think that there are two everlasting Fathers out there?Paul
Paul, I pray the Lord would open your mind to the truth of His very, very clear Word that Jesus loves His Father, and the Father loves the Son.These are two quite distinct Persons my friend.As Paul says: " Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he [Father] chose us in him [Christ] before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love(Ephesians 1:3-4 ESV) "For the Father LOVES the Son and shows him all that he himself is doing. And greater works than these will he show him, so that you may marvel. For as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, so also the Son gives life to whom he will. The Father judges no one, but has given all judgment to the Son, that all may honor the Son, just as they honor the Father. Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him. Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.(John 5:20-24 ESV)
No my friend, Jesus and the Father are not two!Jesus said, "I and the Father are one" (John 10:30).That depends whether you believe the Scripture.Look what the Lord Jesus said, "I thought that you would call me Father" (Jer.3:19).And look what Isaiah said, "You O Lord 'Jesus' you are our Father and Redeemer (Isa.63:16).You can't beat that! By the way, the Lord Jesus did open my eyes to that destructive satanic doctrine the Trinity and I pray that the Lord Jesus would open your eyes also and grant you repentance. Kind regards Paul
You have to look at the whole of Scripture Paul, which you don't do. Sad.If you simply go and read John's letter, his Gospel, you will be convinced that Jesus has a Father in heaven. Especially when you come to the 17th chapter, where He asks His Father if there is another way than the Cross, and yet "not My will, but Your's be done", Jesus says these very words to His Father.
"And he said to them, “My soul is very sorrowful, even to death. Remain here and watch.” And going a little farther, he fell on the ground and prayed that, if it were possible, the hour might pass from him. And he said, “ABBA, FATHER, all things are possible for YOU. Remove this cup from me. Yet not what I will, but what YOU will.” (Mark 14:36 ESV)
Paul G, I am trying to understand where you are coming from, and hope I do not come across as argumentative or disrespectful. I think I have a healthy respect for the Puritans, but there appears to be a disconnect. Rejection of Trinitarian doctrine is not what I see in the works of Jonathan Edwards, or Matthew Henry, or John Owen.Still, if these men (or any other Puritans) never existed, but we base our theology purely on the Scriptures, biblical Christians have historically come to a common understanding. That is, that even though the word "trinity" does not appear, a careful study between Genesis and Revelation does not leave us with another viable althernative (one nature; three persons).Regardless of what you might think of Dr. Louis Berkhof, I recommend that you view this link on the Trinity, and let the Bible do the talking. Hovering your mouse over any of the Scripture references will show the text. His explanation is brief, but filled with proof texts.
Thanks Craver for your good words.
Don; You need to believe Jesus, when He said, 'concerning the Father I have been speaking figuratively' (John 16:25).FIGURATIVELY means that the Lord Jesus does not have a Father just as the Scriptures said (Hebr.7:3), but rather that 'Jesus is the Father' (John 14:7-9). If the Lord Jesus would have a Father, then it would be impossible for Him to be the Lord God the creator of heaven and earth (John 1:1)And if there is another who is also a God as you have said, then you believing in two gods and transgressing the first and the second commandment of the Lord and don't think that you will go unpunished.That is very serious Don!
Craver;I know that you are not disrespectful or argumentative, but sometimes a good argument for the sake of truth is very healthy for your spiritual maturity. I wish that every Trinitarian would seriously look at this illogical and unbiblical doctrine the Trinity, a doctrine which is so destructive that it closes your understanding to the knowledge of God that it is 'Jesus Christ who is God over ALL forever praised' (Rom.9:5). The knowledge of God can only be given to you by the Lord Jesus Himself and not by the Puritans, I or Louis Berkhof. Any man who tries to understand "God" only by his intellect without the Spirit of the Lord will always end up in great error.Louis Berkhof and many great theologians including some of the Puritans tried to convince the naïve with many words and explanations that THREE could be ONE.But we both know that is impossible just as much as a lie will never be the truth no matter how hard we try.Kind regardsPaul
"If the Lord Jesus would have a Father, then it would be impossible for Him to be the Lord God the creator of heaven and earth"That's your human opinion Paul. The Holy Word of God disagrees with you.I pray you will see the truth of the Word:-His Word, the whole Word is truth. Amen.
"sometimes a good argument for the sake of truth is very healthy for your spiritual maturity."That much I can agree with. The objections you raised against "one in essence, three in persons," that is worthy of discussion... to a point. The nature of God is not comparable to anything in his creation, and that makes it essential to receive the teaching of the Scriptures and illumination of the Holy Spirit.You made reference to Rom. 9:5, which declares unwaveringly that Jesus is God. Who did Jesus pray to? When Jesus was baptized a voice said, "This is my beloved son, in whom I am well pleased;" who was that?Did you visit the link I suggested? Did you read all the verses? I have offered Scriptural reasons that demonstrate your current position to be unbiblical. Don has done the same for you.
No Don, that's not 'my human opinion'.You know exactly that if Jesus is one (fully) God and you believe in another one who is also (fully) God, then you believe in TWO (fully) gods.TWO persons or identities cannot be ONE God!Who has bewitched you to believe such a lie that the Lord your God is two.Jesus made it very clear, "the Lord thy God is ONE" (Mark 12:29), and note v.28 states that it is the greatest Commandment.Whatever else you believe makes no difference, if you transgress on the most important Commandment of the Lord, then you will transgress on all others.See for yourself what the Lord Jesus said, "You are my witnesses", declares the Lord, so that you may know and believe me and understand that I am He. Before me no god was formed, nor will there be one after me. I, even I, am the Lord, and apart from me there is no savior (Isa.43:10-11)". If you still say that there is another God beside Jesus, then you are in a very dangerous position.Don’t believe Keith Green, but believe in the Lord Jesus and His Word.
Craver;I have read the link on the Trinity, and I also have Louis Berkho'’s book on the Trinity and some others of his major doctrines. Also, I have read every interpretation and every flavor there is of this satanic doctrine the Trinity.I know the Truth, and the Truth is the person of Jesus Christ (John 14:6). When the truth shines its light into the darkness of the Trinity, it becomes evident that the Trinity is a lie.Craver, the Bible does not use this terminology "one in essence, three in persons", this is a Trinitarian terminology of those who try to pervert the Scriptures and to lead you away from the truth so that you would believe in another God other than Jesus Christ.The Scripture is simple and said that the fullness of the Godhead bodily is in Jesus Christ the Lord, which simply means, that everything pertaining to God is in Jesus Christ or 'IS' Him and you don't need to look further.I'm glad that you have acknowledged Rom. 9:5 and believe that the Lord Jesus is the Lord God. It is not what you have said that troubles me, but what you don't say that really troubles me, and like all Trinitarians you seem to be an expert in that.The Lord knows and I know that you believe that there is another one who is also a God and you call that other "Father" and this is your sin and transgression against the Lord.Perhaps you should reconsider in whom you put your faith.Lots of loving kindness Paul
I ask Your Jesus to bless Paul and open his eyes to Your whole Truth, not just a few Scriptures; but from Your whole Word, which clearly teaches You died for Your Father's will. You said these words Jesus: "“ABBA, FATHER, all things are possible for YOU. Remove this cup from me. Yet not what I will, but what YOU will.” You die on the Cross, and said to Your Father: "My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me."Thank you Father for hearing my prayer in the name of Your holy Son, Jesus. Amen. "In that day you will ask nothing of me. Truly, truly, I say to you, whatever you ask of the Father in my name, he will give it to you. Until now you have asked nothing in my name. Ask, and you will receive, that your joy may be full.I have said these things to you in figures of speech. The hour is coming when I will no longer speak to you in figures of speech but will tell you plainly about the Father. In that day you will ask in my name, and I do not say to you that I will ask the Father on your behalf; for the Father himself loves you, because you have loved me and have believed that I came from God. I came from the Father and have come into the world, and now I am leaving the world and going to the Father.” (John 16:23-28 ESV)
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